April 17, 2011

Show #143: The Lineup Debate Continues

Peter from capitolavenueclub.com joins the conversation on the lineup and Fredi Gonzalez’s start at the helm.  Also, Freeman improves while Hanson and Beachy go the other way.



160 Responses to “Show #143: The Lineup Debate Continues”

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  1. 1
    Bubdylan Says:

    Peter is right about clumping together the best hitters. It’s been proven. Scoring in bunches, with empty innings in between, is the most efficient way to win games. Don’t fear the black hole at the back of the line up. It’s a bad, bad theory. Have a killer 3 or 4 in a row at all costs. I wish I could remember the article about it, but it’s very convincing.

    Curt, Fredi doesn’t have to have any logic, I promise. His responses in the press to this topic have revealed a VERY high capacity for absurdity.

    Fredi is legitimately worse than Bobby Cox. I couldn’t have possibly predicted I’d ever say that.

  2. 2
    Curt Says:

    Bub, I’m not there quite yet, but I might be convinced soon. I really waited a complete break from all things Cox for the organization. Just to avoid this type of stall.

  3. 3
    Paul Says:

    Some good points were made in the podcast. I’m just not sure theres any negative to Heyward batting second.

    Im suprised there isnt more complaining with the squeeze play. Hanson at the plate, Hinske on third, one out is not the time for a squeeze play.

    Also if the names Kotchman and Kotsay are never mentioned again on the podcast that would be great, thanks.

  4. 4
    Eric Says:

    Bobby did some strange things as a manager, but he is one of the most successful of all time. It’s easy to be worse than someone who won 14 straight division championships.

  5. 5
    Jimbo Says:

    Totally agree with Eric right there.
    As for the squeeze play yea i was pretty bummed when it happened and blew up on us. but after letting it sink in is it really that bad of a move? you have Hanson up which is basically an automatic out you just hope he doesn’t ground into a double play. So you have him squeeze bunt and worst case scenario (or so you would think) is that he at least gets a piece of it and strikes out to give Prado a shot at some RBIs. But I feel hes got a better chance of doing something productive bunting than he does hitting.

  6. 6
    DAP Says:

    jimbo “but after letting it sink in is it really that bad of a move?”

    yes, it was. its was just a terrible terrible call. fredi made a huge mistake there. everything in that situation would tell you not to try that, from hanson being terrible with the bat, to hinske being slow, to there being 2 strikes, having prao up next…everything. i cant stress enough what a terrible call that was by fredi.

  7. 7
    DAP Says:

    Nice job on the podcast, guys, and great job by Peter, to.

    a couple of thoughts: the bullpen is good. its a good mix of pitchers with different skills, that set the braves up very nicely. I credit Frank Wren for putting together a great ‘pen, which is one thing his predecessor always seemed to ignore.

    Specifically mentioned was Linebrink being bad. I strongly disagree. After losing Wagner and Saito, we needed some veteran leadership in the ‘pen, and Linebrink has had alot of success in his career. His mediocre years in Chicago could at least partly be contributed to pitching in a hitters league and in a hitters park. Dude still throws hard and is a great addition to the ‘pen.

    Also, Beachy is what he is. He is never going to be a shut down type of guy, He will have good starts and bad starts, but that is why he is the 5th man. The question is, how many starts does Tehran get in AA before they call him up to take Beachy’s spot? Is that even a possibility?

  8. 8
    Eric Says:

    Wouldn’t you think Minor would get the call first?

    Beachy has the makings of a successful #3 starter. Dude is 24 and has made 6 major league starts. No reason to get carried away – You don’t get to start in a rotation like the Braves’ when you’re 23-24 if you don’t have skills.

  9. 9
    DAP Says:

    Eric “Wouldn’t you think Minor would get the call first?”

    hm…maybe. I’m not getting carried away and calling for Beachy to be shipped out, or anything. My statement was really less about Beachy, and more about Tehran, the best pitching prospect in baseball. Beachy is certainly a good pitcher, and I think he will have a nice MLB career, but I don’t think anyone would argue that Tehran is better.

    I believe Beachy is going to earn his keep with the Braves, but at some point, if Tehran is blowing away AAA…bottom line is I’d like the best 5 to be with the big club.

    This is one thing to love about the Braves right now: The great pitching depth. It really makes it fun.

  10. 10
    Curt Says:

    Teheran is actually in AAA already. I know his first start went very well. I think Eric is right though, Minor gets the call first. Then I think you see Rodrigo Lopez get some starts. Then Teheran. I think they want to delay that clock as long as they can.

    For the record, KK is 1-1 with a 7.59 ERA in MS. .357 average against. 9 ERs in 10 IP. Given up 3 homers.

  11. 11
    Curt Says:

    And I would take Wainwright over Hanson

  12. 12
    Nate Says:

    If one of those two (Minor or Beachy) can pull it together then we don’t see Julio for another year. If they can’t, then the earliest is July or August. See Kawakami 2010. 1-10 start before a move was made. I’d say Minor and Beachy each get spotted a fair amount of loses since it is the 5th spot. Plus they are young. Bad outings are pretty much a given. See Tommy Hanson from onset of career to now. I was encouraged by Beachy’s first go with the Brewers. He showed composure against the Phils both this year and last. Those are about the 2 toughest lineups in the NL.

  13. 13
    BRAVEinNY (Matt) Says:

    I would take Hanson over Wainwright. Hanson is going to be VERY affordable for the next few years. After next year’s club option on Wainwright, he is going to demand $15 Million a year on the free-agent market.

    So, I’d rather have Hanson for 4 years for a reasonable salary, than Wainwright for one year (coming off TJ).

  14. 14
    Eric Says:

    I’m not sure how the contract stuff works, but I doubt we see Teheran until the expanded roster. Remember, when the Braves really needed an arm a couple years ago, TH was killing it in AAA, but they didn’t bring him up until June because they didn’t want to pay him. By delaying, they made sure they wouldn’t have to negotiate for an extra season. I suspect the same thing will be in play with Teheran.

    I like Hanson, but I would rather have Wainwright – even off a Tommy John.

    ABT guys – can you get a quote function programmed for your comment threads?

  15. 15
    Nate Says:

    Good show guys. I would take Hanson over Wainwright for the same reasons as Matt stated in #13. More years for cheaper. The Brave way.

    Heyward needs to be batting 2nd. On a side note, this would be a cool lineup:

    Prado, Chipper, Mac, Heyward, Uggla, Freddie, McLouth, Gonzo, P.

    You could flip flop Freddie and Gonzo depending on righty/lefty starters. This could never happen for many obvious reasons, but it would be cool to see for a game or two. I love the Heyward batting 4th idea.

    Good point on Julio, Eric.

  16. 16
    Nate Says:

    We are 2 1/2 weeks in and Heap is still the co-leader for SB’s. I’ve given up all hope for the Braves ever being a team that runs or possess any speed whatsoever.

  17. 17
    Eric Says:

    Someone tell Frank Wren to put in a call to Otis Nixon. It’s never too late for a comeback.

  18. 18
    Curt Says:

    Let’s take money out of the Wainwright/Hanson question. Talent wise, even with Wainwright missing the season, it isn’t that close right now. Wainwright is a certified, Cy Young caliber ace. Tommy Hanson is not. He’s a shaky 4 at this point.

    Eric – Steve will have to check with our IT guy on that.

  19. 19
    Curt Says:

    Nate, as the old line goes, you can’t steal first.

  20. 20
    BRAVEinNY (Matt) Says:

    If the contract if out then, of course I’d rather have Wainwright.

  21. 21
    Steve Says:

    Eric – re #14, can you provide a description or send me a link about that functionality? We’ll certainly look into it.

    Curt – if money is out of the equation, then, of course it’s Wainwright.

    By the way, didn’t we actually say the Linebrink was looking good during the show? Maybe it was pre/post show.

  22. 22
    Eric Says:

    Since we’re talking about lineups, worth noting that Terry Francona has no problem moving his under-performing guys around:


    Unrelated, was there a bigger waste of hype and money than Daisuke Matsuzaka?

  23. 23
    Leah Says:

    Haven’t had a chance to listen to the show yet but I have a time sensitive question. How does one lose points in fantasy baseball? I’d like to discontinue that trend.

  24. 24
    Eric Says:

    Steve – Look at post #5 from this link:


    At the bottom right of every post is a button for “Quote.” When you click it, the page reroutes to a text box with HTML for pull quotes already programmed around it. That way you don’t have to say “Steve – ” or “#54″. You can see the text from the post you’re responding to.

    An edit function might be nice too – I leaving typos in my posts.

  25. 25
    DAP Says:

    steve “By the way, didn’t we actually say the Linebrink was looking good during the show? Maybe it was pre/post show.”

    You might have, but Peter said he was “horrible”.

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