Show #143: The Lineup Debate Continues

April 17, 2011

Show #143: The Lineup Debate Continues

Peter from capitolavenueclub.com joins the conversation on the lineup and Fredi Gonzalez’s start at the helm. Also, Freeman improves while Hanson and Beachy go the other way.

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160 Responses to “Show #143: The Lineup Debate Continues”

1
Bubdylan Says:
April 18th, 2011 at 12:20 am
Peter is right about clumping together the best hitters. It’s been proven. Scoring in bunches, with empty innings in between, is the most efficient way to win games. Don’t fear the black hole at the back of the line up. It’s a bad, bad theory. Have a killer 3 or 4 in a row at all costs. I wish I could remember the article about it, but it’s very convincing.

Curt, Fredi doesn’t have to have any logic, I promise. His responses in the press to this topic have revealed a VERY high capacity for absurdity.

Fredi is legitimately worse than Bobby Cox. I couldn’t have possibly predicted I’d ever say that.
2
Curt Says:
April 18th, 2011 at 4:53 am
Bub, I’m not there quite yet, but I might be convinced soon. I really waited a complete break from all things Cox for the organization. Just to avoid this type of stall.
3
Paul Says:
April 18th, 2011 at 5:58 am
Some good points were made in the podcast. I’m just not sure theres any negative to Heyward batting second.

Im suprised there isnt more complaining with the squeeze play. Hanson at the plate, Hinske on third, one out is not the time for a squeeze play.

Also if the names Kotchman and Kotsay are never mentioned again on the podcast that would be great, thanks.
4
Eric Says:
April 18th, 2011 at 6:50 am
Bobby did some strange things as a manager, but he is one of the most successful of all time. It’s easy to be worse than someone who won 14 straight division championships.
5
Jimbo Says:
April 18th, 2011 at 7:02 am
Totally agree with Eric right there.
As for the squeeze play yea i was pretty bummed when it happened and blew up on us. but after letting it sink in is it really that bad of a move? you have Hanson up which is basically an automatic out you just hope he doesn’t ground into a double play. So you have him squeeze bunt and worst case scenario (or so you would think) is that he at least gets a piece of it and strikes out to give Prado a shot at some RBIs. But I feel hes got a better chance of doing something productive bunting than he does hitting.
6
DAP Says:
April 18th, 2011 at 9:16 am
jimbo “but after letting it sink in is it really that bad of a move?”

yes, it was. its was just a terrible terrible call. fredi made a huge mistake there. everything in that situation would tell you not to try that, from hanson being terrible with the bat, to hinske being slow, to there being 2 strikes, having prao up next…everything. i cant stress enough what a terrible call that was by fredi.
7
DAP Says:
April 18th, 2011 at 9:23 am
Nice job on the podcast, guys, and great job by Peter, to.

a couple of thoughts: the bullpen is good. its a good mix of pitchers with different skills, that set the braves up very nicely. I credit Frank Wren for putting together a great ‘pen, which is one thing his predecessor always seemed to ignore.

Specifically mentioned was Linebrink being bad. I strongly disagree. After losing Wagner and Saito, we needed some veteran leadership in the ‘pen, and Linebrink has had alot of success in his career. His mediocre years in Chicago could at least partly be contributed to pitching in a hitters league and in a hitters park. Dude still throws hard and is a great addition to the ‘pen.

Also, Beachy is what he is. He is never going to be a shut down type of guy, He will have good starts and bad starts, but that is why he is the 5th man. The question is, how many starts does Tehran get in AA before they call him up to take Beachy’s spot? Is that even a possibility?
8
Eric Says:
April 18th, 2011 at 9:40 am
Wouldn’t you think Minor would get the call first?

Beachy has the makings of a successful #3 starter. Dude is 24 and has made 6 major league starts. No reason to get carried away – You don’t get to start in a rotation like the Braves’ when you’re 23-24 if you don’t have skills.
9
DAP Says:
April 18th, 2011 at 9:47 am
Eric “Wouldn’t you think Minor would get the call first?”

hm…maybe. I’m not getting carried away and calling for Beachy to be shipped out, or anything. My statement was really less about Beachy, and more about Tehran, the best pitching prospect in baseball. Beachy is certainly a good pitcher, and I think he will have a nice MLB career, but I don’t think anyone would argue that Tehran is better.

I believe Beachy is going to earn his keep with the Braves, but at some point, if Tehran is blowing away AAA…bottom line is I’d like the best 5 to be with the big club.

This is one thing to love about the Braves right now: The great pitching depth. It really makes it fun.
10
Curt Says:
April 18th, 2011 at 9:54 am
Teheran is actually in AAA already. I know his first start went very well. I think Eric is right though, Minor gets the call first. Then I think you see Rodrigo Lopez get some starts. Then Teheran. I think they want to delay that clock as long as they can.

For the record, KK is 1-1 with a 7.59 ERA in MS. .357 average against. 9 ERs in 10 IP. Given up 3 homers.
11
Curt Says:
April 18th, 2011 at 9:55 am
And I would take Wainwright over Hanson
12
Nate Says:
April 18th, 2011 at 9:55 am
If one of those two (Minor or Beachy) can pull it together then we don’t see Julio for another year. If they can’t, then the earliest is July or August. See Kawakami 2010. 1-10 start before a move was made. I’d say Minor and Beachy each get spotted a fair amount of loses since it is the 5th spot. Plus they are young. Bad outings are pretty much a given. See Tommy Hanson from onset of career to now. I was encouraged by Beachy’s first go with the Brewers. He showed composure against the Phils both this year and last. Those are about the 2 toughest lineups in the NL.
13
BRAVEinNY (Matt) Says:
April 18th, 2011 at 10:15 am
I would take Hanson over Wainwright. Hanson is going to be VERY affordable for the next few years. After next year’s club option on Wainwright, he is going to demand $15 Million a year on the free-agent market.

So, I’d rather have Hanson for 4 years for a reasonable salary, than Wainwright for one year (coming off TJ).
14
Eric Says:
April 18th, 2011 at 10:41 am
I’m not sure how the contract stuff works, but I doubt we see Teheran until the expanded roster. Remember, when the Braves really needed an arm a couple years ago, TH was killing it in AAA, but they didn’t bring him up until June because they didn’t want to pay him. By delaying, they made sure they wouldn’t have to negotiate for an extra season. I suspect the same thing will be in play with Teheran.

I like Hanson, but I would rather have Wainwright – even off a Tommy John.

ABT guys – can you get a quote function programmed for your comment threads?
15
Nate Says:
April 18th, 2011 at 11:17 am
Good show guys. I would take Hanson over Wainwright for the same reasons as Matt stated in #13. More years for cheaper. The Brave way.

Heyward needs to be batting 2nd. On a side note, this would be a cool lineup:

Prado, Chipper, Mac, Heyward, Uggla, Freddie, McLouth, Gonzo, P.

You could flip flop Freddie and Gonzo depending on righty/lefty starters. This could never happen for many obvious reasons, but it would be cool to see for a game or two. I love the Heyward batting 4th idea.

Good point on Julio, Eric.
16
Nate Says:
April 18th, 2011 at 11:19 am
We are 2 1/2 weeks in and Heap is still the co-leader for SB’s. I’ve given up all hope for the Braves ever being a team that runs or possess any speed whatsoever.
17
Eric Says:
April 18th, 2011 at 11:36 am
Someone tell Frank Wren to put in a call to Otis Nixon. It’s never too late for a comeback.
18
Curt Says:
April 18th, 2011 at 11:38 am
Let’s take money out of the Wainwright/Hanson question. Talent wise, even with Wainwright missing the season, it isn’t that close right now. Wainwright is a certified, Cy Young caliber ace. Tommy Hanson is not. He’s a shaky 4 at this point.

Eric – Steve will have to check with our IT guy on that.
19
Curt Says:
April 18th, 2011 at 11:39 am
Nate, as the old line goes, you can’t steal first.
20
BRAVEinNY (Matt) Says:
April 18th, 2011 at 11:58 am
If the contract if out then, of course I’d rather have Wainwright.
21
Steve Says:
April 18th, 2011 at 12:03 pm
Eric – re #14, can you provide a description or send me a link about that functionality? We’ll certainly look into it.

Curt – if money is out of the equation, then, of course it’s Wainwright.

By the way, didn’t we actually say the Linebrink was looking good during the show? Maybe it was pre/post show.
22
Eric Says:
April 18th, 2011 at 12:08 pm
Since we’re talking about lineups, worth noting that Terry Francona has no problem moving his under-performing guys around:

http://sports.espn.go.com/boston/mlb/news/story?id=6381422

Unrelated, was there a bigger waste of hype and money than Daisuke Matsuzaka?
23
Leah Says:
April 18th, 2011 at 12:09 pm
Haven’t had a chance to listen to the show yet but I have a time sensitive question. How does one lose points in fantasy baseball? I’d like to discontinue that trend.
24
Eric Says:
April 18th, 2011 at 12:17 pm
Steve – Look at post #5 from this link:

http://www.volnation.com/forum/tennessee-vols-football/127304-derek-dooley-eagerly-awaits-signees-arrival.html

At the bottom right of every post is a button for “Quote.” When you click it, the page reroutes to a text box with HTML for pull quotes already programmed around it. That way you don’t have to say “Steve – ” or “#54″. You can see the text from the post you’re responding to.

An edit function might be nice too – I leaving typos in my posts.
25
DAP Says:
April 18th, 2011 at 12:31 pm
steve “By the way, didn’t we actually say the Linebrink was looking good during the show? Maybe it was pre/post show.”

You might have, but Peter said he was “horrible”.
26
Steve Says:
April 18th, 2011 at 1:11 pm
Thanks, DAP. That explains it.
27
BRAVEinNY (Matt) Says:
April 18th, 2011 at 3:00 pm
Leah,

Well in the format of our league, each category has a point system. Since there are 12 teams top top team in a certain category is awared 12 points and so on…

So let’s say your team has the most home runs, your team gers 12 points in the standings for that category. If another team say, has a great day and passes you in homeruns (so you are in second place in HR) they now get 12 points in the HR category and you move down to 11 points; meaning your team loses a point.

Does this make any sense.??

Matt
28
Bubdylan Says:
April 18th, 2011 at 4:38 pm
Hooold EVERYTHING. Perhaps I spoke too soon on Fredi’s ego:

Braves lineup:

1 Prado LF,
2. Heyward RF,
3. Jones 3B,
4. McCann C,
5. Uggla 2B,
6. Freeman 1B,
7. Gonzalez SS,
8. McLouth CF,
9 Hudson
29
Nate Says:
April 18th, 2011 at 4:54 pm
Maybe he listened to the show.
30
Curt Says:
April 18th, 2011 at 5:42 pm
HA. We strike again
31
Leah Says:
April 18th, 2011 at 5:47 pm
He totally listens to the show! Great show!

Matt, sorta. Wish the game didn’t start at my bedtime. Stupid job.
32
Steve Says:
April 18th, 2011 at 5:55 pm
I am shocked. I really am. Good for Fredi. I really was concerned that his ego would get in the way. Now let’s score 11 tonight.
33
Walker Says:
April 18th, 2011 at 8:01 pm
There’s no way Fredi could ignore the criticism. Who cares if you have a hole at the bottom of your lineup. Get your best hitters the most at bats. Common sense. I think we have all become a little more educated on how a baseball lineup should be constructed with this issue. I find it interesting that the 4th hitter in a lineup is actually more important than the 3rd hitter. All these years I thought the best hitter hits third. And I like the strategy of the 6th hitter having some speed. Glad we have some tonight with Freeman(wink) This is the start of a 12 game winning streak. I guarantee a win tonight.
34
Anne Says:
April 18th, 2011 at 8:10 pm
Nice show, fellas. Hey, since I haven’t been to The Ted yet this season: for the bull pen, who’s wearing the awesome little kid backpack this year, and what’s the theme? My Little Pony was my favorite, hands down.
35
Walker Says:
April 18th, 2011 at 8:40 pm
Oh and on the issue of Turner Field. Turner Field is a nice ballpark but it was built out of opportunity. It was originally Centennial Olympic Stadium and was fitted into a baseball stadium. Pretty good deal but sometimes I wish the braves waited and built one of these 21st century stadiums. But then again more taxpayer money should be going to public schools instead of baseball stadiums.
36
Steve Says:
April 18th, 2011 at 9:33 pm
Dammit, Tim. Not the start we needed in the first.
37
Curt Says:
April 18th, 2011 at 9:38 pm
At 10:37, might be reading about this one in the papers. Gotta get up early to talk to Jewel.
38
Pure Says:
April 18th, 2011 at 11:10 pm
Freeman: 6’5”/225; McLouth: 5’11”/180.
If I were Lily and I had to plunk someone, I’d go after Nate too.
39
ham Says:
April 18th, 2011 at 11:21 pm
Curt – don’t read the papers when you wake up.
40
Pure Says:
April 18th, 2011 at 11:32 pm
Its hard to keep the faith when its same-o same-o…
41
Anonymous Says:
April 19th, 2011 at 12:06 am
Ignore post # 33
42
Nate Says:
April 19th, 2011 at 6:18 am
Our offense just looked inept last night, and what was with that gimmick of putting Hicks on deck with McLouth up in the 4th? The whole thing was just comical. No pitcher is afraid of McLouth. They will absolutely go after him every time to have the pitcher leading off the next inning. Nice try, though, Fredi.
43
Curt Says:
April 19th, 2011 at 7:01 am
I think I’m most disappointed about being owned by Lilly and Loney. 2 guys who have been pretty terrible so far this season.

Can we just have Martinez pitch the first inning in Hudson’s games and let him come in in the 2nd? With this offense, we can’t be spotting teams 3 runs in the first. I need to look back and see how many of the games the Braves have played that the other team scored first. I’ll bet it’s in the 80% range.

I’m sure everyone read DOB yesterday, but I was shocked at out team ERA. This really is more like 2 years ago when the pitching was brilliant and we lost every game 3-2.

Sorry, 4-2.
44
Steve Says:
April 19th, 2011 at 8:15 am
I really don’t want to talk about the game. So, Curt – was Jewel nice?
45
Curt Says:
April 19th, 2011 at 9:19 am
She’s doing a great job. She’s re-doing the Libby’s jingle. Some sort of contest.
46
Ron Says:
April 19th, 2011 at 9:28 am
McLousey, Young, Uggly, Hinske, Gonzalez, Boscan, Conrad, Hicks! There you have it! A line up for an average AAA Minor league team!! Braves are in for a long season; the pitcher’s morale will sink fast; they have to depend on these journeymen players to support McCann, Chipper, Heyward and Prado (These guys aren’t doing much either)!
47
Mark in Memphis Says:
April 19th, 2011 at 11:06 am
Well, that line up change is certainly working out the last two games… At least for McLouth…

You had McCann and Uggla get on base twice each in front of what WOULD HAVE BEEN Heyward…

Instead, you put pressure on a rookie in the first quater of his first season, after he finally was showing some signs of “settling in” and “getting comfortable” and what happens? His hitting streak is broken…
48
Walker Says:
April 19th, 2011 at 11:15 am
Lets not panic yet. The redsox started 0-7 and now they are 5- 10. The orioles started 6-0 and now they are 6-5. Things can turn around quickly. My hope is that we don’t fall anymore than 5 games under .500.
49
Ron Says:
April 19th, 2011 at 12:30 pm
Good news! Frenchie is doing well in Kansas City. Great person. Wonder where McCann, Heyward, Hanson, Prado, Venters, etc. will be when their contracts come up? The money will be paid to big winners like Gonzalez, Uggla, and McLousey. We need new GM and owners.
50
Curt Says:
April 19th, 2011 at 8:52 pm
From CBS Sportsline – where the Braves are currently ranked behind the Nats.

Tongue somewhat in cheek, I would add.

“It’s more fun to traffic in panic scenarios than it is to make sober assessments. In that spirit, here’s the plan: Demote the light-batted Freddie Freeman (because if he hasn’t hit in 56 major-league plate appearances at age 21, clearly he never will), move Chipper over to first (which is totally learnable defensively in about four hours) and deal for one of the third basemen who could be on the market before too long (Silver Slugger/Gold Glove candidates Edwin Encarnacion and Kevin Kouzmanoff). See? Offense fixed. That wasn’t too hard.”
51
Steve Says:
April 19th, 2011 at 9:06 pm
Ron- seriously? Your comment about Freeman. I loved the move to #6 for him almost as much as the Heyward move. This lineup is just right. It will start paying dividends.
52
Pure Says:
April 19th, 2011 at 9:36 pm
Scoreless first inning. Good sign. And Beachy’s bringing it. How I wish I had MLB.TV (can’t afford it). For now I’ll have to settle for Jim and Don + Gameday.
53
Nate Says:
April 19th, 2011 at 11:09 pm
Beachy looked pretty damn good tonight. I’ll take that from a 5. Freeman with a jack (solo of course). Now let’s get some hits with guys on base.
54
Nate Says:
April 20th, 2011 at 12:20 am
The offense just showed up. 9-1 Braves. Top 9.
55
Nate Says:
April 20th, 2011 at 12:28 am
10-1. 10 hits in the 9th including a 2 run HR pinch-hit homer from Hinske and a 3 run HR by Uggla. This game has been much more fun to watch. Venters was huge in cleaning up Linebrink’s mess in the 7th and shutting down their middle of the order in the 8th.
56
Walker Says:
April 20th, 2011 at 12:32 am
Gonzalez’s UZR must me off the charts with all these plays he’s been making.
57
Nate Says:
April 20th, 2011 at 12:37 am
Gonzo just put on a freakin clinic in the 9th.
58
Curt Says:
April 20th, 2011 at 7:23 am
I went to bed after we couldn’t score with bases loaded and 1 out. Guess they were waiting for me to turn it off.
59
Leah Says:
April 20th, 2011 at 7:37 am
Just watched the condensed game and Freeman looked 10 feet tall at first. Good grief that man can stretch.

In other news my mini van died.
60
Pure Says:
April 20th, 2011 at 7:57 am
McLouth’s average is now .250! Can we pencil in that wildcard now?
61
Steve Says:
April 20th, 2011 at 9:38 am
Pure – you’re #60 is funny and interesting. We’ve said on the show (I think) and in side conversations that if Nate would just hit .250, we’d be in. Now if we can just get Heyward going (semi-kidding). Crazy that he was 0 – 5 last night.
62
Mark in Memphis Says:
April 20th, 2011 at 9:44 am
Heyward is 0-fer batting second in the order…

McLouth has done pretty well in the 8th spot…

Let’s bat the pitcher 2nd and they can bunt all the time. Maybe they would FINALLY learn how with regular practice…
63
Leah Says:
April 20th, 2011 at 9:59 am
Are we sure he’s comfortable in the #2 hole?
64
Steve Says:
April 20th, 2011 at 11:37 am
Please, Leah. This is a family website.
65
Ron Says:
April 20th, 2011 at 12:06 pm
While watching last nights win, I was reminded of an old baseball saying: every team no matter how good or how bad wins one third of their games and every team loses one third of their games; success depends on what they do with the other third. Another solid outfielder and a couple of dependable veteran pinch hitters would add alot to the Braves chances in the many close games that lie ahead. Braves pitching will take care of the rest!
66
Walker Says:
April 20th, 2011 at 12:24 pm
Wow Steve where is your mind? Lol
67
Curt Says:
April 20th, 2011 at 12:35 pm
When can we trade for Omar Infante?
68
Walker Says:
April 20th, 2011 at 1:59 pm
I remember rumors that Mike Piazza was comfortable in the #2 hole.
69
Leah Says:
April 20th, 2011 at 2:12 pm
Steve, the same place it was when I wrote comment #59.
70
Eric Says:
April 20th, 2011 at 2:33 pm
Thought you might like this, Curt. Paraphrased from Scott Linebrink on the Braves Clubhouse Report:

“Hitting is timing, and pitching is disruption of timing. The most important thing to learn as a pitcher is how to throw a change-up with the same arm speed as a fastball. Kids want to throw 4-5 pitches, but no one should ever throw a breaking pitch before high school. All they really need is a change-up.”
71
Ron Says:
April 20th, 2011 at 3:30 pm
Can’t cry over spilled milk but Charlie Morton (traded for McLouth) is pitching tonight for minimum wage (2-0, 1.64 era). Other updates: Francoeur .323, 12 rbi (Where is Ryan Church?), Yunel @ .315. The good news is Infante is at .220 and Dunn has not pitched much but no earned runs (but the two together make all year what Uggla makes in one week). I really believe in sticking with the home grown kids as much as possible. The more any team pays the “outside”vets (McLouth, Gonzalez, Uggla, Lowe, Kawakami/Still making millions), the less you have to keep guys like Prado, McCann, Heyward, Hanson, etc.
72
Eric Says:
April 20th, 2011 at 3:49 pm
Francouer seems like a nice guy, but you can’t honestly be disappointed he’s not on the team anymore. His batting average since he left the Braves is sub .250 and his OBP is a tad over .300. He still strikes out about 25 percent of the time.

Most importantly, where would he play? You would start him over Heyward or Prado?

I prefer a franchise builds through a farm system as well, but it’s unfair not to point out that Hudson, Ross, Wagner, Vazquez, Lowe are just a few names we acquired through free agency that have been very valuable.
73
Ron Says:
April 20th, 2011 at 4:50 pm
Good points, Eric. Let’s be fair to our wonderful GM.

Hudson is the real winner here. Let’s keep in mind: Ross is inexpensive and of great value. Wagner wanted to come here for one year; call it luck we got him. We had to get rid of Vasquez because we couldn’t trade Lowe. Lowe only recently has shown the value of his $15 mil; so, the first half+ of his time here was clearly an “overpaid” situation. Win some , lose some?

Not so much that Frenchie will ever be a star but we got nothing for him (I’ll take him back for Ryan Church if we still had him) and we are short at least a 4th outfielder. Watched JF batting 4th with 2 hits and throwing out a runner at home the other day; also, he is only 27. Had not mentioned Melky or Ankiel or Mather (in all fairness, the list of bad acquisitions is much longer then I mentioned above and much much longer than the list of good ones).

Also, there are always surprises in the season, Prado may very well get plenty of games in the infield before it is all over. Hinske may very well get a lot of first base (as I recall, we didn’t need LaRoche ’cause Freddie was ready),. As of now, that means McLouth better improve and someone else needs to appear out of nowhere. Anyway, this family likes Jeff. PS: I’ll take Morton back for McLouth.

Guess from my viewpoint, McLouth’s average since we got him is better than GM Wren’s. If Uggla, Gonzalez, Sherrill, Linebrink, and our weak bench pan out, I’ll give Wren his kudos. Sorry, I got carried away. Will keep them shorter.
74
Kate Says:
April 20th, 2011 at 5:48 pm
Wow, there’s someone more negative than Curt.
75
Curt Says:
April 20th, 2011 at 5:57 pm
Easy
76
Nate Says:
April 20th, 2011 at 6:10 pm
I looked it up, and last year Jason had a .107 batting (3-28) average against the Dodgers and has obviously done nothing against them this year. Maybe they just aren’t his team. His only lower batting averages are against the White Sox and Tigers.
77
Ron Says:
April 20th, 2011 at 6:21 pm
Kate drinks the kool-aide?
78
Ron Says:
April 20th, 2011 at 6:23 pm
I love my country but there are things that need to be fixed. Can one love the Braves and still want to have things fixed? Or, have you been sold on loving everything?
79
Ron Says:
April 20th, 2011 at 6:24 pm
If so, you must love the national debt, higher taxes and the Yankees too.
80
Eric Says:
April 20th, 2011 at 6:55 pm
Ron, Derek Lowe has not performed like a $15 mil a year ace. Fair enough. But he has provided the team with 34 and 33 starts in his two season and nearly 200 innings both years. Any manager will tell you that kind of reliability provides value. So I think we can agree that Lowe has been overpaid, but not grossly, particularly considering his value as a veteran leader in the clubhouse on a young pitching staff.

Wren signed Javier Vazquez as a free agent, Roger McDowell coaxed the best season of his career out of him, then the Braves traded him for Melky Cabrera and, wait for it, Julio Teheran – the best pitching prospect in baseball. Since the trade, Vazquez has had an ERA of nearly 6.00. I think we can safely say that keeping Lowe and flipping Vazquez for Teheran is a huge win for the Braves and Frank Wren.

You mentioned the Ankiel deal without providing the context that we needed production in centerfield during a playoff chase in Bobby Cox’s final season. It was a desperation move to give Bobby any chance at all to go out with a bang. Not to mention that the Braves gave up virtually nothing – Gregor Blanco, a nice player whose upside is a utility outfielder, Tim Collins, a minor league reliever who will likely never make the majors, and Jesse Chavez, who is completely useless. And they got Farnsworth in the deal too. The Braves lost nothing and made a move worth making to give Bobby a shot.

The McLouth for Morton swap looked like a steal at the time, and well see how this season pans out. McLouth has shown signs of coming alive.

The Braves also gave up almost nothing for Mather, as well.

Frank Wren is working with a smallish budget, and has very little room for error. The biggest mistake he’s made so far is gambling on Kawakami. I think the Escobar trade was also a mistake, but, as has been discussed, he was unpopular in the locker room. All in all, Frank Wren has done a tremendous job keeping young talent in the farm system while improving the team. A good majority of his moves have benefited the Braves.
81
Walker Says:
April 20th, 2011 at 7:05 pm
Eric we traded for Vasquez and when we traded him we got Arodys Vizcaino.
82
Curt Says:
April 20th, 2011 at 7:12 pm
The worst two recent trades for the Braves were the Texiera debacle and the JD Drew trade. The Tex trade for the sheer volume of what you gave up to get nothing, even though at the time I think we universally supported the fact that they did something. Two all stars came out of the deal, obviously, for the Rangers, and Matt Harrison has started this season almost as hot as Charlie Morton has. The JD Drew trade was another one where the Braves felt like they needed one piece to get them over the top. The cost was again high, and Wainwright is a Cy Young guy. Neither seem great now because they didn’t result in a world championship. But if they had, what would we be saying now? I will add that both were made by Schuerholz.

Overall, I don’t think Wren has given up much at all. He’s made a couple of bad signings, but those were free agents. The trades, who have we lost? Charlie Morton has gone 9-21 as a Pirate with a ERA just below 5. He might be 2-0 this year, but it’s April. And if you take the 2-0 start out his ERA jumps to 6. Jason Schmidt, he is not. I too didn’t/don’t like the Escobar deal, but he isn’t killing it. He’s a nice player, but nothing like I expected him to be. And I think part of that is his own lack of effort, which you can’t coach.
83
Curt Says:
April 20th, 2011 at 7:15 pm
The Braves also offered Tex something like $180 million to stay and he turned them down, so there was nothing more they could do to round that out.
84
Walker Says:
April 20th, 2011 at 7:26 pm
@Curt

JD Drew probably had the best year of his career in 2004 and we probably don’t got to the playoffs that year without him. We won the division by 10 games and Drew had a WAR of 7.5 and he protected Chipper. It was a good trade.

We gave up a lot of players for Teixera but I really don’t want anybody back but Neftali Feliz. I thought we would always have Yunel so I didn’t care about Andrus. And if we didn’t trade for him we would always be wondering what if. Remember we had him for parts of two seasons. We really should have gotten more when we traded him to the Angels.
85
Curt Says:
April 20th, 2011 at 8:42 pm
Walker, I agree with some of that, and was trying to make the point that the 2 worst trades, in retrospect, were moves that at the time probably seemed worth it. The Braves offered Drew a contract that he rejected too.

But the fact that neither of those trades brought the return to the team that the McGriff one did makes them bigger failures to people.

I would not go as far as to say they were good trades, though
86
Steve Says:
April 20th, 2011 at 9:25 pm
And, please, please, please – no revisionist history on Frenchie. What he’s doing in 2011 in KC is completely immaterial. Go back and look at his last 12 months + in Atlanta. He was absolutely KILLING the offensive production. Not just a horrible BA, but lots of strikeouts and lots of double plays. A black hole of McLouthian (2010) levels. He had to go.
87
Leah Says:
April 20th, 2011 at 9:53 pm
Please tell me Lowdemort isn’t making a reappearance.
88
Ron Says:
April 20th, 2011 at 9:58 pm
Lot’s of good points. Good to see this site fired up!!
89
Ron Says:
April 20th, 2011 at 10:04 pm
Not looking for a bottomless pit of money from the owners but it will be good when new ownership surfaces so that management can work on keeping the picks of the litter while mixing in a hired gun here and there. They need to be able to take full advantage of their great farm system.
90
Walker Says:
April 20th, 2011 at 11:29 pm
Another game, another day the Braves get dominated by a league average starter.
91
Pure Says:
April 20th, 2011 at 11:30 pm
I hope you guys didn’t stay up for this one. Garland complete game. Ugly.
92
Nate Says:
April 20th, 2011 at 11:55 pm
Are we really doing a recall on the Charlie Morton and Jeff Francoeuer trades? Are u guys serious? Wow. Look at Charlie Morton’s and Frenchy’s stats other than April 2011. This is really worse than last year when KJ blew up in April and everyone thought we should have kept him. People are losing their minds.
93
Nate Says:
April 20th, 2011 at 11:56 pm
It’s April.
94
Nate Says:
April 20th, 2011 at 11:59 pm
Maybe this is why Atlanta teams never win. It’s karma for reactions such as those seen on the last 2 pages of this blog after a 7-11 start in a 162 game season. Get a grip. The sky is not falling. You guys get more angry over our struggling 21 year olds than our struggling 30 year old veterans. it just doesn’t make sense.
95
Nate Says:
April 21st, 2011 at 12:02 am
Budget posts already? How much higher was the Giants’ payroll than the Braves’ last year? Same negative, complaining posts. New year.
96
Curt Says:
April 21st, 2011 at 6:54 am
Charlie Morton got blasted by the Marlins last night.
97
Curt Says:
April 21st, 2011 at 7:24 am
Don’t think it is the fact that you lose last night, Lowe was due for an off night, but don’t get beat up by Lackey and Uribe. It’s like Loney and Lilly getting you in game 1. Don’t let the guy batting .140 have 2 2-run 2 out singles against you. Drives me crazy. And then to get shut down by Lackey, he of the 10+ ERA.
98
Kate Says:
April 21st, 2011 at 7:54 am
re #79 – Yes, that’s exactly what I meant.
99
Ron Says:
April 21st, 2011 at 11:50 am
The past is the past and can’t undo it. The facts are that the Braves have good pitching and great catching but several question marks in the line up and on the bench. Certainly everyone saw the questions before the season started. These were mine: Can Freeman hit? Can McLouth hit? How many games can Chipper play? Can Prado and Heyward get even better? Can Prado take one for the team and hunker down in left field (remember when Chipper did it and played LF?)? Can Young, Hicks, and Conrad hit off the bench and fill in on the field? Will Sherrill and Linebrink contribute? Will Jurrjens flourish this year? Who will lock up 5th starter position? Will Uggla be worth money? It’s early so we don’t have all the answers!! But there are some trends developing.
100
Walker Says:
April 21st, 2011 at 2:58 pm
@Ron
You’re right. We by far have one of the weakest benches in MLB. This will be easy to improve at the deadline. It’s weird because our defense was supposed to be the question coming into the season not the offense. Prado and Jason aren’t great right now. Uggla looks bad. But all of these guys cannot have all down years.
101
Ron Says:
April 21st, 2011 at 3:17 pm
Walker,

u r right on! Knock on wood to avoid injuries (no depth) and hope that we can find a dependable veteran or two for the bench. Pitching should hold up.
102
Walker Says:
April 21st, 2011 at 4:50 pm
What a comeback!
103
Adam Says:
April 21st, 2011 at 4:52 pm
I could kiss David Ross!
104
Curt Says:
April 21st, 2011 at 6:07 pm
Ridiculous
105
Adam Says:
April 21st, 2011 at 6:08 pm
I blame McClouth
106
Curt Says:
April 21st, 2011 at 6:11 pm
As you should
107
Kate Says:
April 21st, 2011 at 6:12 pm
Why pitch to Kemp with first base open?
108
Steve Says:
April 21st, 2011 at 6:32 pm
Another big gut punch. As it’s the most recent, it feels like the worst.
109
brandon Says:
April 21st, 2011 at 7:25 pm
Hey guys anybody else starting to feel we’re 2 bats short on the bench. Young and Conrad just aren’t cutting hit with the bats. Today we sit a slumping Heyward and get nothing from young. I don’t think we are as deep on the bench as we first hoped.
Hey Curt do you have the AAA numbers on Ramirez?
110
Kate Says:
April 21st, 2011 at 8:14 pm
Brandon – Ramirez is hitting .235 with 3 HR and a .278 OBP. Schafer is hitting .283 with a .365 OBP. Mather is hitting .304 with a .333 OBP.
111
Leah Says:
April 21st, 2011 at 9:32 pm
Is it just me or is it getting less and less early?
112
Curt Says:
April 21st, 2011 at 10:03 pm
It must be April, because the Braves suck
113
Nate Says:
April 21st, 2011 at 11:45 pm
Well, we didn’t hit anything in this last series if it wasn’t the 9th inning. Unless Bob Gibson or Maddux are going for you every day, you’re probably going to have a bad 4 games. This series represented what the Braves have been doing in the postseason and regular season every year except for 95: hitting nothing against good pitching. It seems like our team uses good opposing pitching and defense as am excuse ALL THe TIME. STEP UP. SOMEONE. These guys make way too much money for the excuses they lob out there. Grow a pair and hit the ball. There I said it. It’s still April, but the baseball the Braves play right now is boring and depressing. Aren’t these guys paid anywhere from 6 figures to millions to hit tough pitching? Man up. Somebody. Please. I know I’m getting mad over what is said in cliche postgame interviews, but it’s literally all we have. Besides terrible, unenthusiastic play from overpaid athletes.
114
Nate Says:
April 21st, 2011 at 11:50 pm
Maybe there’s a reason Matt Young never made the majors until now?
115
Nate Says:
April 21st, 2011 at 11:51 pm
He’s like Marcus Giles without the Juice. Again.
116
Nate Says:
April 21st, 2011 at 11:55 pm
I’m going to the Crads/Braves series with over 20 members of my family from STL. I need us to start playing better immediately.
117
Curt Says:
April 22nd, 2011 at 7:19 am
I love the Crads
118
Leah Says:
April 22nd, 2011 at 8:23 am
117 made me laugh.
119
brandon Says:
April 22nd, 2011 at 9:43 am
Thanks Kate it looks like we need to bring up some bench help anything
120
Ron Says:
April 22nd, 2011 at 10:04 am
SOMEONE needs to step up in San Francisco or this could get uggla, I mean ugly.
121
Ron Says:
April 22nd, 2011 at 10:15 am
This was a big Kingston Trio hit and it is was sung again in Los Angeles: Where have all the hitters gone? Long time passing. Where have all the hitters gone, long time ago? Where have all the hitters gone? Braves have lost them one by one. When will they ever learn? When will they ever learn?

Hope the Braves start writing better verses in San Fran.
122
Steve Says:
April 22nd, 2011 at 11:25 am
Loved #115.

New series. If we start hitting, this all starts to fade away. But I’m not real optimistic now. And scared about Hanson tonight. Which Hanson will it be?
123
Eric Says:
April 22nd, 2011 at 2:17 pm
Wouldn’t be surprised to see Mather up with the Braves when they option this kid Cory Gearrin back to Gwinnett after the road trip.
124
Walker Says:
April 22nd, 2011 at 5:27 pm
Can Gonzalez leave Heyward alone? Last year they said he was too patient, now they are saying he’s not patient enough. Stop over analyzing and messing with this kids head. Its called a slump. Gonzales needs to be criticizing Uggla. Heyward isn’t getting paid 13 million dollars.
125
Leah Says:
April 22nd, 2011 at 11:10 pm
Watching Rowand bat is…well, just unpleasant.
126
Pure Says:
April 23rd, 2011 at 2:17 am
That was a good win. Hanson was sharp. But I’m still not comfortable with this formula for winning where we only have one good inning offense-wise and we have to make it hold up until the end of the game.
127
Ron Says:
April 23rd, 2011 at 8:39 am
Walker,

Another good point from you. Heyward is learning the Major league game and doesn’t need a public put down. Heyward in the $400,000 range not the $80,000 a game range like Uggly. Uggla makes in one week what Heyward gets for the year!!!!
128
Curt Says:
April 23rd, 2011 at 8:50 am
Better get used to it.

Team ERA: 3.27
Team BA: .228
129
Ron Says:
April 23rd, 2011 at 8:54 am
Granted, it is too early to judge, but is it possible that Fredi is not that good? Sub .500 at Florida; they look better without him. Maybe he got fired for a reason. So, either way, it will take a good manager to keep his team in the race in this division!! We’ll see. As for GM Wren, he better find a couple of good bench players.
130
Pure Says:
April 23rd, 2011 at 10:36 am
About the crazy stat where only 4 errors have been committed by Braves opponents against them this year — If we’re not putting the ball in play, there’s nothing for them to make an error on.
131
Curt Says:
April 23rd, 2011 at 1:04 pm
That and no extra outs or gift unearned runs
132
Ron Says:
April 23rd, 2011 at 3:25 pm
They got a different kind of gift today; two walks to start the game. Too bad Prado never got close to reaching second base on his steal attempt. You won’t often see anyone get thrown out by more. Not much speed on the Braves.
133
Pure Says:
April 23rd, 2011 at 4:10 pm
I just listened to the latest Braves Clubhouse Report podcast and I must day I was impressed with Linebrink. He was very eloquent during the interview and made a lot of good points. Listening to him talk, he sounded a lot like Billy Wagner. But then again, I’m not American so all you guys sound the same to me.
134
Ron Says:
April 23rd, 2011 at 4:16 pm
If he can pitch like Wagner, we got a steal.
135
Leah Says:
April 23rd, 2011 at 6:22 pm
No way BC takes out Huddy with one out to go. Good move by Fredi.
136
Leah Says:
April 23rd, 2011 at 6:23 pm
…and, we’re gonna win a series!!!! Go Braves!
137
Nate Says:
April 23rd, 2011 at 7:39 pm
#136, that’s what I’m talkin’ ’bout.

McLouth is starting to look like the pesky, tough out Nate McLouth of old. Very nice to see. I can’t believe I just put Nate McLouth and tough out in the same sentence.
138
Ron Says:
April 23rd, 2011 at 7:56 pm
Isn’t McLouth our 3rd or 4th highest paid player? You are right though, he is looking like he is at least alive. You aren’t the same Nate are you?
139
Nate Says:
April 24th, 2011 at 8:41 am
Are you guys still doing MVP/LVP in the show?
140
Nate Says:
April 24th, 2011 at 8:44 am
Also, what’s the story on the Venters arm issue? I’ve heard it’s no big deal, but if he goes down I think we all know that our ‘pen becomes significantly weaker. His stats since coming into the league are redonkulous. All-Star worthy, imo.

I also just looked at the NL stat leaders, and there sits Kimbrel tied for number 1 in saves. Pretty cool.
141
Pure Says:
April 24th, 2011 at 10:22 am
Kimbrel is pretty awesome. Wouldn’t it be great if Kimbrel, Freeman, and Beachy were 1-2-3 in the ROTY voting? Gotta sleep now, need to wake up at 4am for the game with the Giants. Beachy for the sweep!
142
Andrew Says:
April 24th, 2011 at 12:04 pm
Not a stat guy but since last sunday:

Heyward 6-24; BA – .250; OBP – .308; Slug – .375; 1HR – 4K – 2RBI – 2W – 2R.
McLouth 7-20; BA – .350; OBP – .480; Slug – .500; 6R – 1RBI – 3 Doubles – 5K – 5W.

Both did have off days during the week and does not include Sunday.

Who should bat 2nd? Do we move McLouth to lead off and move Prado down to #2?

During this time we went 3-3, whats the braves next move
143
Ron Says:
April 24th, 2011 at 3:19 pm
Uggla should be batting 8th.
144
Ron Says:
April 24th, 2011 at 4:09 pm
Nothing like doing Posey a favor with the changeup.
145
Ron Says:
April 24th, 2011 at 4:58 pm
Nothing like signing Uggla long term after his best year in the Majors. He is looking more and more like one of those players that is washed up young (someone named andruw ring a bell)? A good manager would either bench him or bat him 8th or both. Yes, he may step out of this funk but right now he can’t swing, run or anything else; not even running hard.
146
Ron Says:
April 24th, 2011 at 5:01 pm
Notice, they are pitching around Chipper to get to Uggla?
147
Ron Says:
April 24th, 2011 at 5:24 pm
Game not too important to Fredi if you leave someone in for 4 hits and a walk.
148
Walker Says:
April 24th, 2011 at 5:29 pm
Is Fredi kinda slow? 3 hits and a bases loaded walk and he’s still pitching. WTF?

I would have pulled him after the Cody Ross hit. SMH
149
Bubdylan Says:
April 24th, 2011 at 5:50 pm
Dried Turd > Fredi Gonzalez

That is all.
150
Leah Says:
April 24th, 2011 at 6:40 pm
Holy cow! Do your last few comments still stand? I was feeling really good about this team even the skipper until i read that he was less than a turd.

If a Giant had to hit a two run homer I’m glad it was Buster Posey.

We swept the Giants! What say you???
151
Jo-Bu Says:
April 24th, 2011 at 6:48 pm
I really didn’t think the boys were going to get it done having not being able to hold a lead this road trip.

Good on Nate McLouth to get off the schnide (or pretty much near that). Complete team effort and this is the first game of this season that resembles anything of the 2010 Braves. Thank God that April is almost over!!!
152
Walker Says:
April 24th, 2011 at 7:01 pm
Nate “Close your eyes, swing and pray” McLouth comes through!!!

Only on Easter. Thank you Lord!!!
153
Curt Says:
April 24th, 2011 at 8:01 pm
Nate, we are not doing MVP/LVP this season. We’re doing a Good Sign/Bad Sign segment that goes a little more in depth than just the statistical stuff we were doing last year.

Not sure about a lot of the negativity on here after today. Asencio was BAD, but what a great win and sweep. Never in my wildest dreams did I imagine that would be the end of this road trip.
154
Jo-Bu Says:
April 24th, 2011 at 8:23 pm
This series proved to me that if the Braves had been healthy, we really might have had a chance at the NL Pennant. To compete as well as the 2010 Braves did with their bench against SF in the NLDS, you really felt that if we had Chipper, Prado, and Medlin, we stood a really good chance of getting to the WS. As it worked out, SF gained substantial momentum and won it all. To go out there this past three days and sweep the Giants away, you really like the character of these 2011 Braves: Clutch hitting, hitting for average, hitting for power, good gloves and great pitching 1-12[13]. My worst fear is that we are a a streaky club like the 2009 Braves. But I’m starting to see some halmarks of the 2010 club and we are in the twilight of April — good sings (cautiously optomistic).
155
Leah Says:
April 24th, 2011 at 8:42 pm
#153…here here!
156
Bubdylan Says:
April 24th, 2011 at 9:39 pm
Leah, I’m happy about the sweep. I couldn’t believe Fredi let that kid flounder out there batter after batter, including walking in a run, while a 3 run lead became a 1 run deficit. But the sweep was nice. Lots of good things about this last game in particular, but my favorite moment was Nate’s 2 out clutch single. He worked the count and than he was all over that pitch. A really pretty piece of deliberate line drive hitting.
157
Curt Says:
April 24th, 2011 at 9:44 pm
Even more so after how terrible the LA series was.

New show up in a little while.
158
Bubdylan Says:
April 24th, 2011 at 10:01 pm
http://s252.photobucket.com/albums/hh15/wvxvxvxvw/?action=view&current=HPIM0191.mp4

A few Chipper’s-birthdays ago.
159
Ron Says:
April 25th, 2011 at 4:23 pm
Great sweep! But so far, it looks like it was in spite of Fredi instead of because of Fredi. Hopefully, Braves can find consistency. Not good week, bad week, good week, etc. Their pitching is as good as anyone’s top to bottom. Bench absolutely sucks; Chipper can’t play every game and neither can the rest of the players. We will need a trade and/or a rising star or two from AAA.
160
Ron Says:
April 26th, 2011 at 9:55 am
How about getting a few runs for Lowe?

Show #143: The Lineup Debate Continues

160 Responses to “Show #143: The Lineup Debate Continues”

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